Ziert Alert: Alicia, It's Not Your Fault

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Alicia, it was not your fault that the American team "lost" the gold medal. Let's stop all this Karolyi insanity. Facts are facts and the meet was lost in Houston, Texas, with very poor administration by Marta Karolyi. She just didn't do her homework, and she alone should take the blame for not doing what she promised the American media.

I believe it's very important to establish a few things about these two teams. First, I do not think the U.S. team should count on outexecuting any Chinese team. The Chinese have a program that really emphasizes toe and foot point, stretched legs, excellent posture — you know the stuff that the first word in the name of our sport is all about. In general, the American program doesn't focus on these same basic elements of good execution to the same degree. The American motto here seems to be "non-deductible is enough." Therefore, one can only make a prediction based on the A-panel possibilities. And, here in Beijing it wasn't even close. If Jiang Yuyuan went for the Yurchenko 2½, the Chinese started the meet with a 2.0 advantage and if she went safe with the double, a 1.3 edge. Those are the facts, people — indisputable! That means when this competition began, the Chinese were in the position to win the gold by 1.3-2.0.

Since Deng Linlin did a Yurchenko double-full instead of a 2½ from Jiang, any educated person should then have expected the Chinese women to win by 1.3. That's one byproduct of this Code, and Marta Karolyi just didn't get it. She apparently bought into the chatter about how the Chinese always miss, how the Chinese can't handle the pressure, etc. Hence, she developed a team that had no chance to win unless the Chinese gave up the gold. I find that totally unacceptable. You train a team to win if you say they are going to win. You do not train a team to be solid so that when the best team makes mistakes, your team wins. That is not what sports are about, at least in my mind. Not a particularly good life lesson — "be prepared so when the person above you falters, you can move up."

Chellsie Memmel hugs Alicia Sacramone during the women's team final

Now to Alicia Sacramone. I can prove with simple arithmetic that she did not cost the American team a gold medal. First, let's assume that Alicia had done the same routines in finals as qualifying. Most would have been happy to see her perform routines of that quality. On beam, she scored 15.95 in prelims. With the fall in finals, she scored 15.1. That's a loss of .85. Now on floor she did have a few small problems in prelims, but she didn't fall; the score was 14.425. Her finals score was 14.125. That's -.3. So her total negative impact on the team's finals score was -1.15. When we adjust that to the final score, the Chinese still should have won by 1.325 if Alicia had hit both her beam and floor. Ironically, that's almost precisely the different in the A-panel scores.

Again, it was not your fault, Alicia. And if Marta Karolyi had any class at all, she would take the blame for this herself. She and others around her misled the press and public, and she needs to be held accountable. I, personally, am very happy for this talented group of young ladies who endured those training camps, the trials that weren't really trials and all the many other injustices to WIN the silver medal. Congratulations, ladies!

The U.S. men's team — The little team that could

What a remarkable and exciting competition, the men's team final! There should have been no question in anyone's mind who would win the gold and silver. In fact, only a major injury to one of the Chinese or Japanese gymnasts while competing could have changed that outcome. They delivered beautiful though not perfect routines, but they certainly impressed me with how easily both teams can handle this Code. I watched the routines of these brilliant athletes like I was at the theater. I could have cared less what scores the judges put up — I long ago lost faith in this group's ability to acknowledge and even possibly reward mastery. Watching the Chinese team holding hands while emotions of relief and joy covered their faces, stirred me very deeply. My huge congratulations to Golden China and Silver Japan. You are both great models for our sport!

So then let's get to the competition, and what a competition it was. With Russia, Germany, Korea and the USA so tightly packed together as far as A-Panel possibilities and quality of the top three in every event, I was sure it would come down to the "inner being" — those who wanted it most, heart — you know all the trite phrases. Well, this America team, none of whom have ever been on a stage this big, refused to be shaken. Some thought the order would do them in — starting with strong events and having to finish with horse, their weakest apparatus. Others thought that would be an advantage — get a big team score and then hope and pray for hit routines from Kevin Tan, Raj Bhavsar and Sasha Artemev, who, by the way, was not originally selected for the team because of this inconsistency on horse. Well, guess what, this team ignored everything but themselves, and with joy, passion and camaraderie produced a wonderful string of hit routines that impressed everyone. Working hard for every tenth and trying to stick every landing, this little team believed they could and did — the almost impossible. Putting pressure on Russia and Germany that resulted in costly mistakes and taking advantage of the stigma that Yang Tae-Young must have for Olympic competition (he virtually missed all five routines he attempted.), the Americans won outright the bronze medal.

As Bart Conner said when asked about the team bronze, "It's as good as gold!" and that it was. That was the only medal that the Americans could have won. The gold and silver medals would have needed to be given to them by flawed performances by the Japanese and/or Chinese. I hope the guys cherish the performances that they gave us; they were really special!


IG Publisher Paul Ziert coached Bart Conner to two gold medals at the 1984 Olympic Games in Los Angeles, and was the assistant coach for the U.S. women's team in 1980. He was inducted into the USA Gymnastics Hall of Fame in 2006.

 

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Comments (45 posted):

AM10 on Wednesday, August 13, 2008
Here Here!!!

It's too bad the girls can't make a mistake in practice and forced to peak at training camp. If USAG had any class, they'd tell the Karolyis to shut their mouths and stop blaming the "loss" on anything else.
emthegymnast on Wednesday, August 13, 2008
i deffinitly agree that its *not* alicia's fault. i mean, nastia and shawn both stepped out of bound on floor to! and i was also wondering why the heck bridget sloan wasnt used on bars in team finals! that was the sole reason she came, am i wrong? and they didnt even end up using her. yet another flaw in the karolyi system. but i dont think if chelsie wasnt injured and the scoring wasnt so harsh teh us had as good as a chance china to win the gold. with chelsie i think*- they couldt have had 3 16's on beam, 2 16's on bars (eventhougth chels did competed her a score was lowered) and 1 16 and at least 2 15.7 or 8's on floor. and they didnt use sam on vault. in the end i think with out injuries the u.s. had a very good if not equal shot at the gold.
Banter1 on Wednesday, August 13, 2008
I am not the world's biggest fan of the Karolyi's however to just blame Marta is a bit extreme. What other team was she going to put on the floor? She put the best and least injured kids up. They did not do their job. Yes they still would have won the silver but we as a country do not produce the same quality as the chinese. When you cannot produce the same start values then you train your kids to be consistent. That is all you can do. I have had several gymnasts at the ranch for various national team training camps. It is up to each individual coach to produce the athletes routines with start values. Marta has very little say so over that. My only thought is that they looked tired and over trained. I do blame the Karolyi's for that. Too long of a selection process!
twomom on Wednesday, August 13, 2008
I so agree Paul. How sad for this woman's team that they cannot savor this accomplishment because of Marta and her big mouth. They won silver, and that is wonderful.
Marta has failed this team in more ways than one. She has obviously over-trained them, as they all just looked emotionally and physically drained this week. I realize injuries happen but two within a week just seems too coincidental to be a fluke, and besides that the girls just looked like they had the weight of the world on their shoulders. And then there is bringing this team to the biggest meet of their lives without the numbers to "seriously" contend with the Chinese. They had the numbers to win, if China was less than perfect, but why would you go to the Olympic games with your medal hopes resting on someone else messing up. Marta allowed these girls to believe that the medal was within their grasp by numbers alone, and it was wrong to mislead them that way. And her behavior after the team finals...all I can say about that is it is disgusting and shows very poor sportmsmanship. She should have supported her team (especially Alicia) congratulated them on a job well done and encouraged them to hold their heads high. But instead she has to go running her mouth like a jealous school child. And throw Alicia under the bus to boot. Disgusting.
truefano8 on Wednesday, August 13, 2008
I have to be honest here people, the Chinese had this competition won before it started, and anyone involved w/ Team USA who thought China would break under pressure hasn't been paying attention to the progression of the Chinese team and their ability to perform well under pressure and post 16+ and 17+ scores abroad. The US has the talent to compete and even beat the Chinese, in the future I would like to see the athletes with difficulty plus composition make squads, for men and women, particularly women, because as great as our girls are, outside of Liukin, the chinese looked far more polished and seemed to own the routines a little more. On a side note, I feel sorry for Team Russia, the men and women came prepared for medals and just didn't make it happen. Darn shame about Devyatovsky, that's not being a man, that's behaving like a spoiled brat.Complete disregard for your fellow human beings that you spend the majority of your life around, what kind of behavior is that? dude needs help, and shout out! to the American men, in truth, I'm disgusted and disappointed in the behaviors and decisions made by the Men's selection committee, butit was good to see the guys grab a medal, cause they sure didn't have to medal here if you know what I'm sayin'.
tdrz on Wednesday, August 13, 2008
Now is the time for IG to help bring about the change USAG needs. Bring on the expose of the Karolyi's I mentioned in another response to a Ziert Alert.
Gymn69 on Wednesday, August 13, 2008
Not saying you're wrong but it does seem like a vendetta against the Karolyis is going on ...
gymn96 on Wednesday, August 13, 2008
Another spot on article. Thank you for writing this!

emthegymnast -
You're dreaming if you think the Americans could have received the scores you mentioned. A 16 on floor? From who? Shawn? She hit her routine in prelims (a simpler version, but nonetheless, a solid routine) and scored a 15.425. Nastia also hit (15.25) and Alicia wasn't perfect, but didn't fall (14.425). Where are you getting 15.7 or 15.8? Chellsie would never have received the B scores to get anywhere near that. Bridget wasn't used in team finals because she was inconsistent in prelims and Shawn had been scoring higher anyway. Even if she was chosen for the team for bars, if she was not scoring in the top 3 on the team, why would they put her up?

Face the facts in the article - START VALUES are much more important than anything else these days. China had the clear advantage and in no way would the US have had an equal shot at gold, even without the injuries.
melissa on Wednesday, August 13, 2008
If they hit their routines that is.....
twoflipstwotwists on Wednesday, August 13, 2008
agreed!

with the team selections system that was put into place, the women's USA team was forced to peak in June. With a completely healthy team, the competition might have been a little more fair.

Anyone else notice that Team USA had maybe one or two stuck landings in the whole competition??
jvgymnast on Wednesday, August 13, 2008
Thank you for this editorial-- I was dismayed to see so much blame pushed on Alicia Sacramone, and it's nice to see a level-headed perspective on the issue.
kemsnews on Wednesday, August 13, 2008
I'm sick of this attitude that winning a silver medal in a hyper-competitive environment is a "loss". China had the whole package this Olympic cycle, hands down. They are a more complete team not only scorewise, but also with their entire presentation. Just because something hasn't done what it was "meant to do" doesn't mean it's worthless. The U.S. won a silver medal, for God's sake! How many nations who didn't finish that well would have been proud and humbled to have won that medal directly behind China's Dream Team?

But since hindsight is 20/20 (and seems to be the only way the U.S. cares to look at anything, sports or not), let's evaluate our selection program, and figure out what did work before we condemn everything and everybody. If the U.S. could bring camp-fused team unity forward while encouraging healthy training methods, pacing our athletes and addressing burnout that probably played a part in our "loss", we might have that whole, heralded package. Instead of pointing fingers, lets move forward with what we've learned during this go-around, and let's move on (not only toward London, but toward establishing a tried-and-true, healthy environment for our athletes). We should be setting a standard, not chasing an established pack. This might be difficult for many competitive athletes who have known nothing different, but for the aesthetics and safety of our sport we must focus more on the process, and less on the results.
VickiT on Wednesday, August 13, 2008
I am absolutly disgusted at the lack of sportsmanship displayed by Marta AND the American team, this is NOT what gymnastics is about. I am Aussie, and we were so happy to be in the Team final, the Americans should be so proud that they won silver, if they are not, then they dont diserve it - there are hundreds of girls out there who would be so proud just to represent their country alone! Stop walking into a competition expecting to win, go in there to do your best and if you win there is an added bonus, if you expect to win you will only fail. Congratulations to China, they were beautiful and they diserved to win! And congratulations to the Aussie team - you have come so far in the past 10 years!
graciea on Thursday, August 14, 2008
WORD! this article also sums it up: http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=dw-karolyis081308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
sprinkls on Thursday, August 14, 2008
I completely agree with you! Paul, I love your Zeirt Alerts. They are so insightful and it is great knowing that I am not alone in my opinions. It was absolutely NOT Alicia's fault. Poor girl, the greater media is destroying her. Marta should own up to her mistake and not let the blame fall on and destroy such a great gymnast.

VickiT--I agree with you too. The US did not lose the competition. It is an honor that they could be in the competition, and they should accept their medals with gratitude. After all, it is not like everyone can get an Olympic medal. For every girl up on that podium, there are thousands who make huge sacrifices for even the chance to be there.

Congratulations China! The best team won!
ickle on Thursday, August 14, 2008
I know you like to criticize Martha and usually have valid reasons for doing so. I enjoy reading your insight about her and USAG. And yes, her talk probably played a role in people thinking a U.S. win was more likely than it was. But I would say that NBC is as responsible as or more responsible than Martha for the public's blaming of Alicia and expecting the U.S. to win. They made a big deal out of her errors, interviewed her about how it felt to let down the team, etc, without ever really pointing out that even without Alicia's errors, the U.S. would not have had gold. The math is not that hard to do, especially for people so familiar with gymnastics. I can forgive the general network types, but how could someone like Tim Dagget not make more of a point to de-blame Alicia? Sure it makes the competition seem less dramatic, but Alicia deserves better.
AlexLiang on Thursday, August 14, 2008
Congratulations on an excellent article Paul. It is very well written - did you see the article on the BBC where Marta Karolyi was blaming the organizers for making Sacramone wait before the start of her beam routine? Like she was the only gymnast who had to wait around a bit before her routine?

I find it incredible that despite the fact that you've written an EXCELLENT article here, clearly elucidating exactly WHY things went wrong for the American team - down to the differential in the A-score start values, you still have people here who seem to have totally skipped your article and decided to post a response to it anyway when they have clearly not read what you've written. (Yes emthegymnast, that's you.)

There has been so much poor sportsmanship from the part of the Americans blaming everyone else, accusing the Chinese of cheating, complaining about the judging and to top it off, Marta's brash accusation of the 'sabotage' by the organizers making Sacramone wait (her interview is on the BBC) - I am so glad Paul Ziert has pointed the finger on the true culprit!

Thank you Paul.
twomom on Thursday, August 14, 2008
For those of you who are generalizing the poor sportsmanship to all of the Americans let me just point out that it's not the entire team but one person in particular. I feel that the girls themselves were very gracious, congratulated the Chinese and seemed genuinely happy (if a bit disappointed) with their silver medal. I saw nothing from the teams reaction to show me that they are ungrateful to be on the podium. The person who is the problem here is Marta Karolyi and her obsession with winning at all costs and blaming everyone else when she doesn't.
Elizabeth on Thursday, August 14, 2008
Silver was an excellent, and fair outcome for the US team. I hope that the girls can be allowed to feel proud of themselves - they should do.
I hope a new model can be found for the gymnasts' training - one that favours line and polish to enhance the aesthetic appeal of their work. And trust that more assiduous coaching of fine technique may help to prevent some of the overuse injuries the girls are suffering from.
I think the Code has some responsibility for the approach taken; after all, it is hard to see how the Code rewards polish or encourages gymnasts to execute routines with virtuosity. To this extent, Marta Karolyi has only been responding to her environment.
There is surely a certain amount of self publicity inherent in all sports; isn't this about psyching out the opponent? I have one key question therefore : would you be criticising Marta so harshly if the US team had won the gold?
shan1050 on Thursday, August 14, 2008
I have been a life-long fan of IG, but I am getting sick and tired of hearing Paul Ziert's rants about the Karolyis. If you have a personal vendetta against the Karolyis, then please ask them to step outside so that you guys can "rumble" so that readers/subscribers do not have to be subjected to your tirades over and over again, both in print and online. You seem to be so obsessed with destroying the Karolyis that you at times are failing to use rational logic. At one moment, the girls look fabulous and so prepared. Then they make a mistake, and you think they are overtrained. Someone gets an injury, and it's all Martha's fault; it has nothing to do with the code, the different equipment, or anything like that. The girls "won the silver" because Martha was delusional and actually believed the girls had a chance at the gold. Come on, Mr. Ziert! The fact remains that these girls did not perform up to par when the time came. It has nothing to do with the Karolyis' training methods and everything to do with the fact that it's the Olympics, the moment they've waited their entire lives for, and they crumbled under the pressure. End of story. Please move on to a new subject to rant about before I have to kill my subscription to the magazine I used to love.
rachelmoran on Thursday, August 14, 2008
you need to open your eyes. Why would Paul Ziert have a vendetta against the Karolyis? You would think he would be in love with them since they were responsible for Nadia (and you know his obsession with her). What reason is there to make all this stuff up?

THANK GOD he is willing to stand up to USAG and say the system isn't working. The Karolyi system needs to be done. I bet most the U.S. team will go home feeling disappointed in their Olympic experience because of injuries or they lost.

NO MORE Karolyi Death Camps!!! Hold national team camps every 6-8 weeks at the USOTC under the best sports doctors, massage therapists, nutritionists and sports psychologists in the country. Let them work with doctors like the great Dr. Bill Sands in Colorado Springs. That is what the USOTC is there for.
flyingHI on Thursday, August 14, 2008
Elizabeth-great point. While i don't necessarily think Martha handled the conclusion of the team competition as well as she should have, i think that if the US had gotten gold, no one would say anything about the selection process or making the public believe that the US could win even if they had lower A values. As for blaming Alicia, Martha hasn't done anything really to encourage or discourage the press from sending Alicia under the bus. Unfortunately this team competition, may be what the general public will remember about Alicia, even though she was no where near her best.
I can't say if both teams had done 12 clean routines, what the outcome would have been, but I think in the end, everyone, Martha and fans alike, should take a step back and really evaluate why the US can't be happy with silver. Why does America have an obsession with winning, and most importantly why does America treat their athletes like invincible celebrities?
The girls took their defeat in stride, and I truly believe that they did their best. Unfortunately, they've become victims of the media, but the only crime they committed was reminding us that they are human. They just happen to be hard-working and talented 16-20 year-olds who have no more control over life than anyone else. I applaud them for trying to cheer Alicia up, and finding the positives in their team silver. Wishing them the best in their individual finals!

And a big shout out to the men's team for believing in themselves and proving all the dis-believers wrong. I was rooting for you guys all the way!!! This team not only showed heart, passion, and dedication, it also showed everyone (fans and fellow competitors) that gymnastics can be fun. The bronze was really as good as gold, if not better! - Martha, take note...let the gymnasts let their gymnastics do the talking...

Karma certainly has a way of making itself known in gymnastics...
dtownboi on Thursday, August 14, 2008
the u.s. womens team were very happy with their silver medal, did u see sam peszek, bridget sloan, and the other girls faces when they placed those silvers around their necks at the OLYMPIC GAMES? except for alicia, who i'm sure was disappointed mostly by the fact that she went out with two falls (who wants to do that?) they messed up but the best team won. although in future competition i would hope the u.s. sends a team that is strong on paper also, because clearly with this new code, if u have higher start values then you have the advantage ie; nastia and he kexin falling on bars but still qualifying for finals and chellsie falling and not making it.
ModelGymnast on Thursday, August 14, 2008
Although I agree that Sacramone didn't "cost" the U.S. the gold, I really don't like how she fell apart during TF. She was an emotional liability to begin with.

I think Marta should choose her words carefully and take more responsibility for the preparation and development of the team, including choosing who to keep or pull out if necessary. I don't think she exercised good judgement in that aspect. However, I don't think she should be chastised for the team's medal placement either.

I agree that the Chinese were well-prepared to win that gold. Their phenomenal routines dimmed any spotlights on other teams.

Best of luck to all the girls in the AA!!
KristyJ on Thursday, August 14, 2008
I agree that it's not Alicia's fault that the US WON the silver. It's nobody's fault- not Alicia's, not Marta's, not the judges', not the officials'; rather, the US result was a combination of factors mainly having to do with the fact that the Chinese team was superior.

It is nice to see that the team with the highest degree of artistry and execution can still compose very difficult routines and win under the new code. On many other teams, difficulty seems to come at the expense of execution, and the gymnastics performed by several lower-ranked teams has gotten uglier and uglier. It's interesting that the team that would likely have won under the old code managed to win under the new code, as well. Perhaps it's time for the world to take notice of the style of routines being performed by the Olympic champions and go back to a more artistic aproach to an artistic sport?

That said, I'm surprised at Mr. Ziert's determination to continue to blame Marta for everything that goes wrong for the US team, including bad press. If anyone deserves a target on their back, it would be NBC for continuing to overdramatize their gymnastics coverage to the point that they skew reality and put a rediculous amount of pressure on athletes. NBC seems to have done the most blaming of athletes and overhyping of mistakes of anyone over the last decade, starting with Vanessa Atler and continuing to Alicia Sacramone and the US team. It was NBC that tried to paint any medal but gold as a failure. The media need an overhaul in how they cover gymnastics competition. It should be about gymnastics, and not drama. Gymnastics is a beautiful sport on its own, and does not need to be made into a soap opera to be appealing.
Alana on Thursday, August 14, 2008
I am not from the USA and don't live there so I have not been exposed to the media hype there. But I have been an IG suscriber for over 30 years, and despite having read Ziert's criticism of the Karolyis in the past, I still don't understand what all this criticism is today against Marta Karolyi in relation to the US silver medal. Anything can happen at a competition; that is simply the way it is. I think we should congratulate the US team on their silver medal, instead of blaming the Karolyis. I didn't see Nadia blaming the Karolyis when she fell on bars in Moscow 1980.
But I do thank Ziert for showing arithmetically that it wasn't Alicia's fault that the US didn't win gold; she shouldn't have that burden on her.
tiffanyosheal on Thursday, August 14, 2008
I think this is a great article!! I'm tired of everyone blaming Alicia (even my husband did and I told him he could cook his own dinner for the duration of the Olympics!) Are the Karolyi's perfect, no, but just observing the Chinese over the past year since worlds I could have told you that they were going to win gold and the US was going to win silver. So, I don't know what Martha was thinking... It's definately all about the start values of the routines. If we aren't taking the risks (for whatever reasons) then we won't get the rewards. Look as Nastia for example. Her father knew how good the Chinese were and he composed a new routine that would make the A-score a big number. Why didn't we think to do this with any of the other routines? Was Marta's head in the sand? I agree with the many comments that the USA team was over-hyped to the media as the only ones who were going to win, no questions asked. I'm an America and I think that they did a great job winning the SILVER!

I do think that the team camps are a good thing but I don't agree with them being every month (maybe every other month during the school year and every month in the summer) and I don't agree with 3-4 major trials before we even got to the Olympics...some rework of the system, especially with all of the injuries, is obviously needed.

And as far as the Karolyi's constant blaming of everyone else...especially with the age controversy...LET IT GO ALREADY! It's obvious that nothing is going to be done about it, the FIG and the IOC made it obvious. I think Amanda Borden made a good statement about it in a CNN interview...if the USA would have won then no one would have even brought the age issue up. There's no way to prove that the ages were changed, even though gymnasts have admitted very recently (2000 in Syndey) that they were too young to compete. (BTW, what's the statute of limitations on a blatent cheating issue???) Unless a major overhal of the system happens or they eliminate the age rule, there is nothing that's gonna happen to the Chinese Federation. They're not the first federation to do it and I don't really see why it's such a surprise.

And another note, I'll admit I wasn't sure how the USA men's team was gonna do, but I was pulling the whole time for them and I'm so proud of their accomplishment!
Jan S. on Thursday, August 14, 2008
Hi Team America,

you´ve done a great job in China!!! Get your heads up and don´t be worry, be happy! You´ve done it!!! A Silver Medal. Isn´t it great? You should be very very proud of it because not everyone can say: "I was at Olympia and I´ve won a medal"
I´m 20 years old, I´m a musician here in Germany were I study and live. Sometimes I think there is one big similaritie to your sport: we both make our hobby for our job! So you can mark, all around the world you´ve friends and fans. I´ve followed the whole women final on Eurosport very, very early in the morning! It was exciting! GO FOR GOLD next time again!!!
Last but not least:
Alicia, I just wanna say to you: you´re my favorite! YOU´RE THE BEST!I wish you all the best for the future, everytime good luck in your career and mayby mayby ... we will see us on a concert in Germany. ;-)
See ya!

Jan S. jan-n.siebert@live.de
tripleaxel on Thursday, August 14, 2008
Alicia Sacramone should try to enjoy the rest of the Olympics -- something she's worked her entire life to achieve, and there's definitely NOTHING wrong with winning a silver medal. She may win another during Vault Finals. She just has to stay positive.

These things happen. Go back to 1996 in Atlanta when the US dominated and the Chinese, who were favored to win their first team medal, suffered from the pressures and finished a disappointing 4th. Mo Huilan managed to salvage a silver in the Vault Finals, but she was the team captain who was supposed to guide her team to a silver behind the Romanians. Instead, she fell off the Uneven Bars during prelims. In the All-Around, she stepped out of bounds on the floor and lost her shot at any of the medals.

Flashback to only 2004 Athens, when both the Chinese Men's and Women's Team imploded and lost the team medals. Li Xiaopeng salvaged a bronze on parallel bars, Yang Wei a silver in the All Around and Zhang Nan a bronze in the Women's All Around.

Caving into pressure happens to the very best and to everyone. You redeem yourself by accepting what has happened and focus on doing better the next time up.

BTW, 99% of the people in the entire world don't have an Olympic medal of any kind. Alicia, you'll always be in that small special group!
tripleaxel on Thursday, August 14, 2008
One more note...in 2000 Sydney, to relieve the stress and pressure, the coaches allowed both the Chinese Men's and Women's Teams to take a break from training and play video games the night before their respecive competitions, and that seemed to work. The Chinese Men's Team won their first team gold and the women won a surprising bronze.

The coaches need to know when to let up some so that the pressure and tension can be released some; otherwise, they'll just have gymnasts who burn out mentally or physically.
HandspringDoubleFront on Thursday, August 14, 2008
I think the article sounded like someone ranting on a message board--not like a publisher of a magazine. Aside from the fact that Martha's name is misspelled, I find the article lacks class. And it's funny that Martha questioned Martha's class. The article sounds like an editorial, but it is not presented that way. Where is the opposite argument? Where is the balance?
gold on Thursday, August 14, 2008
I agree Alicia isn't to blame, but you are SEVERELY underestimating her potential score on FX. In Prelims, she had a huge error, in that she landed completely out of bounds and incurred a 0.5 deduction. She also did a tuck instead of a layout. Alicia was more than capable of bringing in a 15.30 FX score, which was 1.2 higher than the 14.10 she received.

In total, Alicia's errors caused roughly a 2 point loss for the U.S. team. Didn't the U.S. lose by roughly 2.30? They could have made that easily with Shawn or Nastia staying in bounds and Chellsie getting credit for her jam on bars.

In conclusion, I disagree that a Chinese A-score advantage meant automatic defeat. You can't win a competition on paper. And what was Marta supposed to do about bars? It's not her fault that China inserted an illegible athlete into the lineup with a huge start value.

I do agree that the girls are probably overtrained though. Yet, they are forced to work around NBC's TV schedule. They are the ones that dictated the exhausting series of meets, Nationals and Trials, back to back. But Marta is the one who wants to wait until the last minute to pick the team, and therefore breaks half the girls in the process. And I think monthly camps are a little too much. Why not bi-monthly?
GymFan723 on Thursday, August 14, 2008
VickiT - The American girls were proud of their silver. It's everyone else who seems to be complaining. They did not show any poor sportsmanship that I saw. They were hugging and congratulating the Chinese and smiling on the podium. They repeatedly said that they were proud of their silver. Don't confuse the US team with the fans who have lost some perspective.
mrs on Thursday, August 14, 2008
It was not Alicia's fault. It was not Marta's fault. It was not Chellsie's and Samantha's fault. It was an unfortunate situation with everything going against them.

And yes, everyone did look very, very tired. I felt awful for Alicia when she was interviewed and asked over and over how she felt about losing the gold. That was terrible. Alicia is an awesome gymnast and should not have been treated like that.
tripleaxel on Friday, August 15, 2008
HandspringDoubleFront, Marta's name is spelled correctly. Martha is an English name, not Latin based (Romanian is a Latin-based language).
Jan S. on Friday, August 15, 2008
That´s the press! You can´t do anything against them.
I´ve just one last comment: look up for the future and fight again and again and ...

Dear Team Amerika,

I will be so thankful if someone of you, who have read my comments, will write me an answer to my email adress. It will be a magnificent moment for me!
Thank you
See ya!

Jan S. jan-n.siebert@live.de
tempus on Friday, August 15, 2008
rachelmoran, you are too blindly ignorant to recognize a vendetta--or a screed--when one hits you over the head. VickiT, if you can twist the joy and graciousness of the US women's team at receiving their silver medals into 'poor sportsmanship', you and rachel really should set up a website together. Perhaps something along the line of Holocaust denial would be good.
That said, yes, the camps have probably outlived their usefulness; yes, the Karolyis, who BEGAN by encouraging their gymnasts to do the most difficult tricks (Comaneci, anyone?), have settled into a lamentable pattern of lowest-common-denominator, the least-necessary-to-win coaching; and yes, Marta's remarks were thoughtless and sounded dreadful. NO, the US team is not ashamed or sorry to have won the silver medal; NO, Sacramone is not thought of as the scapegoat by any human with more than two functioning brain cells, NOR did her teammates EVER treat her as if she were; and NO, Marta Karolyi did not singlehandedly destroy the US team or its achievement in winning the silver, either by her coaching or her remarks.
Suz24 on Friday, August 15, 2008
Paul, you hit the nail right on the head for Marta! She has no clue what she's doing. When she retires, i truly believe the entire gymnastics community will rejoice.
Vladimir Zaglada on Saturday, August 16, 2008
I competely agree that it is not her fault at all! It is all about "High level Team Gymnastics Srategy" and about appropriate Management of the TEAM. Coming back to the previous alert of Mr.Paul Ziert let me confirm that everything unfortunately start from the Podium Training. I cannot say that Marta's comments should destroy USA Team. Moreover, it was not "...an unfortunate situation with everything going against them".It is well known fact: USA TEAM is a VERY STRONG TEAM and nothing and nobody were against Great American Gymnasts. But from my point of view the Team Manager ( even from very "legendary" level) cannot comunicate with Team members like that. The only Gymnast and her personal Coach must be key persons at the Podium
Practice and Competitions.

At the moment, I am talking to the all Gymnasts competing at the Events' Final,not to the American Girls only: listen to your own voice and to your own heart and you will be the WINNER!

Good Luck to all of you,

VladZ
vncntdl on Saturday, August 16, 2008
I just think it's funny that HandSpringDoubleFront's complaint is that the article "lacks class." What about the serious lack of class displayed in the various comments made by Bela and Marta Karolyi to the press? The suggestion that Alicia's long wait prior to mounting the beam was somehow orchestrated to ensure the Chinese girls would win is an embarrassment to read. I'm not going to comment on their coaching skills, but their lack of graciousness in defeat is not a pretty sight.
barguy on Monday, August 18, 2008
Wow, this article is goofy. 3 points: Had Alecia hit we would have won, Marta didn't cause the Chineese to have higher start values, and finally you almost hit on the reality that the system allowed the underage Chineese to win.

You claim that Alecia was only worth 14.25 on floor - if that was the case, she would not have been put on the team. She was expected to put up substantially better. Should we blame Alecia? If you have been in gymnastics more than a year, you know that people have bad days. Falls happen. Out of bounds happens. Get over it. Alecia is still one of my favorites, even though she had a bad day... knowing what I know, I still would have put her on the team...she earned it.

As for Marta not understanding the system, that is absurd. If we had gymnasts that could score a 7.7 on bars, you would bet she would put them on the team...oh wait...Nastia's bars started at a 7.7. The problem is that we had a system that promotes injury and difficulty at the expense of artistry and enjoyment of the sport.

Take Jack Johnson quitting after Worlds - boy she would have been a great addition to our team. Look at Memmel's injury taking her out of her power events. Think about the huge talent pool we had as a country that dwindled to a mere 8 or 9. The 7 athletes that remained were truly warriors who persevered a poor system.

Now, the system... Imagine in 2004 judging scores ranging from an 8.7 to a 9.5 on a given routine without a conference or a complaint from the crowd. The new system had just that. The new system is so foreign that we complain about the coach instead of a system that allows a vault performed to one's knees a bronze medal over some really good vaults. A system that rewards quantity over quality - do we really need to see a sixth tumbling pass over artistry? Who came up with a system that allows judges enough play to pick a medalist regardless of the routine?

IF anyone is to blame, the blame should go squarely on Bruno and the FIG for ruining gymnastics. There is no longer any room for artistry, no room for originality, no room for fairness, no room for fun. Lets go for one more tumbling pass, one more "e" value skill combination. Our only hope is that America will pick a President in the next election who will order fake passports for American 12 year olds so that we too can fry our athletes and compete them before their bodies give out.
barguy on Monday, August 18, 2008
Unbelievable...just watched bar finals... what a poor system...what terrible judges.
Gymnast702 on Wednesday, August 20, 2008
It seems like everyone who follows gymnastics knows that it wasn't Alicia's fault. I wish the media would point this out to the general public. The only coverage of her has focused on her "losing the gold medal." No one mentioned that she is one of the best gymnasts in US history with 7 world championship medals behind only Nastia and Shannon Miller who have 9. They should have shown a clip of her clinching the team gold medal last year at worlds.
Despite her mistakes this week she still contributed on vault where she has one of the best scores for the US and she did a good job finishing the rest of her beam routine. She didn't really look like herself on floor throughout the competition and podium training, probably a result of over training and injury.
She should be proud of making it here and winning a silver medal after almost quitting the sport 4 years ago when she didn't make it to Athens.
She is still one of my favorite gymnasts and I hope she sticks with the sport a little longer.
Vicki on Wednesday, August 27, 2008
I came across this article fairly late, but I am so puzzled by it, I still feel compelled to put in my two-cents' worth. Excuse me, but WHY is it necessary for anyone to be blamed for the US women's silver? You expect such nonsense from the media but not from a reputable gymnastics' magazine. Blaming Martha is almost as stupid as blaming Alicia. It boils down to this: the best team won; the best US gymnasts went to Beijing (save for Worley, who was injured); the US team did not have the goods for the gold but they did for the silver (which is still excellent). For those reminiscing about the "happy, victorious" 1996 team: remember, they also benefited from some home cooking and had Martha on the floor with them, so what's the difference? (Monthly camps seem a little excessive but some gymnasts say they actually like them.)
Ironically, the men's team indirectly benefited from the Hamms' absence. For one (they are generally great gymnasts but) they were not ready for this competition. But mainly, the expectation would have definitely been at least a medal, if not gold, had they been present. The bronze medal, which is a great success, would have been a "disappointment" and someone would have to be blamed. (Hey, maybe Martha.)
armchr quarterbk on Thursday, October 02, 2008
Vicki, you're absolutely right. The fact of the matter is, the U.S. simply couldn't compete with China on the bars (we won vault and beam, after all, and could easily have won floor too). But on bars, the only U.S. gymnast who could hang with the Chinese was Nastia. We needed two other high-difficulty bars workers, and where was Marta supposed to pick those up? I may not agree with all of Marta's policies (her old-fashioned training regimen in particular), but this unreasonable villification of her is, well, unreasonable.

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Olympic Medal Count

Country Total
11 2 5 18
2 6 2 10
2 2 5
1 1 2
2 2
2 2
1 1 2
1 1 2
1 1 2
2 2
2 2
1 1
1 1
1 1
1 1
1 1